Download this week’s episode on Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, Stitcher, Spotify or via RSS feed, and watch the video version on Police1’s YouTube channel.
In an era where law enforcement faces unprecedented challenges, the call for evolved leadership has never been louder. As communities demand greater transparency, accountability and empathy from their police forces, leaders in policing are tasked with not only responding to these demands but also proactively shaping the future of public safety. This conversation delves into how innovative leadership strategies and a renewed focus on culture are paving the way for a more adaptive and resilient policing framework.
In this episode of Policing Matters, host Jim Dudley speaks with Chief Jack Cauley and recently retired Under Sheriff Chris Hsiung, two leaders with distinguished careers in law enforcement and a shared commitment to modernizing police culture. Chief Cauley, who has led the Castle Rock (Colorado) Police Department since 2012, has been a pioneering figure with his “one by one” policing philosophy, which emphasizes individual care and psychological safety. Under Sheriff Hsiung brings his extensive experience in leadership development and community engagement, contributing to his role in shaping forward-thinking law enforcement practices.
Both leaders are also integral members of The Curve, a nonprofit organization dedicated to revolutionizing police leadership. Founded by Simon Sinek and a collective of police chiefs and sheriffs, The Curve provides cutting-edge leadership development and resources to forward-thinking law enforcement leaders. Through their involvement with The Curve, Chief Cauley and Under Sheriff Hsiung are actively working to modernize police culture from the inside out, fostering environments where both officers and communities can thrive.
About our sponsor
This episode of the Policing Matters podcast is sponsored by OfficerStore. Learn more about getting the gear you need at prices you can afford by visiting OfficerStore.com.
About our guests
Jack Cauley was sworn in as Castle Rock Police Chief on Jan. 3, 2012. He began his law enforcement career in 1984 as a dispatcher, eventually joining the Overland Park Police Department in Kansas, where he served for more than 25 years, rising to the rank of lieutenant colonel.
Chief Cauley holds a bachelor’s degree in criminal justice administration from Central Missouri State University and a master’s degree in public administration from the University of Kansas. He is also a graduate of the FBI National Academy.
In 2018, Chief Cauley was presented with New York Times best-selling author and motivational speaker Simon Sinek’s Igniter of the Year award. Sinek presents this annual award to an individual who has taken his vision and used it to transform the culture around them. Chief Cauley did this through the creation of his One-By-One Policing philosophy, which promotes building a safe and secure environment for officers and staff so they are better equipped to serve each person they encounter individually. This unique style of policing encourages compassion and treating others like family, and his department readily embraced it. Sinek featured Chief Cauley’s cultural shift at the Castle Rock Police Department in his 2019 book “The Infinite Game.”
The International Association of Chiefs of Police appointed Chief Cauley to its Board of Directors in fall 2021. He represents midsize agencies with 100-249 sworn officers through 2024.
Connect with Chief Jack Cauley on LinkedIn.
Chris Hsiung previously served as the Undersheriff at the San Mateo County Sheriff’s Office (California) and before that, was the 11th Police Chief of the Mountain View (California) Police Department, where he dedicated over 28 years to serving the Mountain View community.
Chris is an internationally recognized speaker and writer, specializing in adaptive leadership cultures, digital engagement, and crisis communications. Chris also serves in several leadership positions on multiple boards, including his position as Chair on the Int’l Assoc. Of Chiefs of Police Human and Civil Rights Committee, advisor for Government Social Media, fellow for the Future Policing Institute, and as board member on the Global Advisory Council for the Crisis Ready Institute.
Connect with Chris Hsiung on LinkedIn.
Key takeaways from this episode
- The importance of cultural transformation: Both leaders emphasize that evolving the internal culture of police departments is essential for meeting the expectations of modern society and supporting officer well-being.
- Empathy as a leadership tool: The discussion highlights the need for leaders to model empathetic behavior within their organizations, which in turn helps officers engage more effectively with the community.
- Leadership training must evolve: There’s a consensus that traditional leadership training methods are outdated and need to be reimagined to prepare leaders for the complexities of today’s policing environment.
- Focus on individualized care: Chief Cauley’s “one by one” policing philosophy underscores the value of treating each community member with the same care as a family member, which can build trust and improve community relations.
- The future is bright: Despite the challenges, both leaders express optimism about the future of policing, pointing to innovations in technology, officer wellness programs, and a growing emphasis on leadership development as key drivers of positive change.
Additional resources
Rate and review the Policing Matters podcast
Enjoying the show? Please take a moment to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. Contact the Policing Matters team at policingmatters@police1.com to share ideas, suggestions and feedback.
Episode transcript
Jim Dudley: And you are listening, or maybe you’re checking us out on YouTube, and we’re there as well, and you can check out me and my guests. Well, today we’re talking about leadership, and our guests are forward thinkers who are looking to open paradigms of police culture for both the police and the public.
Jack Cauley was sworn in as Castle Rock Police Chief in January 2012. He served more than 25 years with the Overland Park Police Department in Kansas, rising to the rank of lieutenant colonel. In 2018, Chief Cauley was presented with the New York Times best-selling author and motivational speaker Simon Sinek’s Igniter of the Year award. Chief Cauley achieved this through the creation of his “one by one” policing philosophy, which we’ll talk about today. It promotes building a safe and secure environment for police officers and staff so they’re better equipped to serve each other as they encounter individuals.
Chris Hsiung was appointed undersheriff for the Sano County Sheriff’s Office in February 2023, and prior to that, Chris was the police chief of the Mountain View Police Department. Chris is the founding board member of The Curve, a nonprofit formed by Simon Sinek, police chiefs, and sheriffs from across the country with the mission of providing the most current leadership development and resources to forward-thinking leaders in order to modernize police culture from the inside out.
Jim Dudley: Hey, and we’re talking about the upcoming 200th anniversary of Sir Robert Peel, about finally changing our outlook on policing. Are we moving away, or are we still using those as foundational blocks for leadership in policing?
Chris Hsiung: You know, I think that’s always going to have a place in the history of policing. As we all know, the Peel principles—where the people are the police, and the police are the public—are still rock-solid foundational. I think what it does serve to tell us, though, is how much we have changed since that time. And I think we all know in the profession of policing, we hear the adage, “We hate change,” right? And so I think there’s a lot to be drawn from when we talk about our profession liking to be paramilitary, and we like to pattern our cultures and how we learn what we learn, our leadership principles after the military. But if we take a closer look at the military, we actually can see that they are constantly adapting their cultures and their leadership, and they’re constantly challenging their leaders to read and learn and kind of massage new ideas. And I think we’ve forgotten to do that as a whole in the profession. We enjoy being steeped in tradition, but we don’t often challenge ourselves as leaders to push ourselves—what we learn, what we can, how we can evolve, and push the profession forward.
Jack Cauley: I’d have to agree with Chris. I think that the nine Peel principles are just as true today as they were almost 200 years ago, and I think sometimes it’s important to look back at our roots and our foundational values and revisit them to ensure that we’re still aligned with them. Certainly, with those Peel principles, I think it would be beneficial for all of us to revisit them and ensure that we align ourselves with them and even insert them into our leadership training.
Chris Hsiung: Yeah, I think especially since 2020 with the challenges that we’ve had, the main building block of earning trust with our communities is number one, or at least top of the list.
Jack Cauley: Absolutely agree.
Jim Dudley: So, leadership is the answer to just about every question about policing on Police1 surveys. It always comes back; line officers keep saying leadership, leadership, leadership. We talk about leadership in all ranks, but do we do enough to train and educate our leaders? Now, we have continuing professional education for police officers and sergeants. We send lieutenants and even captains to post-leadership schools. Are we doing enough for the command-level officers?
Jack Cauley: Well, I don’t think that we can ever do enough. See, leadership is so, so important. And kind of back to what Chris was talking about, it’s being cognizant of change. And I think that as we are students of leadership, we need to identify the fact that our world has changed, the officers that we lead today have changed, and our leadership style needs to change. And so I think that leadership is so important that we need to continue to focus on it, but we also need to continue to focus on what works. And I would also say that we shouldn’t just focus on command or people who are in official leadership roles. I think starting leadership training early on in the careers of the people that we lead is very important because we want to ensure that they’re developed and ready to step into leadership roles as we all move forward in our profession.
Chris Hsiung: Yeah, and what I’d add to what Jack said, which I agree with wholeheartedly, is if we take a gross overgeneralization of how training is when someone gets promoted, right? We send them to these courses that generally are kind of checkbox courses to get a post-certification. And I hate to say it, but a lot of that training is done by folks that have kind of retired from the industry and might not have updated their PowerPoints for the last five or ten years, right? You’re laughing, and I think we’re laughing because it’s true, right? So, if we look at other sectors, right, the private sector, even the military—the military has a reading list in order to get promoted, and they’re constantly updating that with new and innovative thought from outside of their sectors, right? And I think that’s really important for us as leadership. If we’re just kind of preaching the same things that we’ve always done, there’s a place for that, but I think that’s only like one chapter of an overall curriculum that we really need to look at. What’s our place in the world? What’s the role of culture in an organization? What are the basic human skills? I mean, we teach quote-unquote leadership, but when’s the last time we taught someone how to have a difficult conversation or how to empathize with someone or how to lead with vulnerability, right? These are all concepts that some of your listeners are familiar with, but I would say by and large, most people don’t get that exposure in the academy. They don’t get it in management courses, supervisor courses, and the like.
Jack Cauley: I think that’s very true. Just to add on to that, focusing on leadership training that may be presented outside the organization is fine, but there’s a lot of things that we can do inside our organization as leaders ourselves to teach our young officers and our professional staff. One thing that Chris and I have done in the past is hold book clubs, and that’s an opportunity to take a book and use that as a springboard to talk about leadership—not only the leadership principles in a particular book. I know Chris and I both have used Simon Sinek’s “Leaders Eat Last” and “The Infinite Game,” but it isn’t just about learning the principles in those books; it’s about getting your leaders around the table, having a great discussion, and you’re able to actually talk together about leadership with your future leaders and the leaders within the department, and have a great conversation about where we’re going, what type of principles do we think work, what else should we be thinking about. So it’s so much more powerful than simply sending someone to leadership training, they come back, and we don’t talk about it again. So I think it’s going to take a holistic approach. Great, let’s send people to training, but let’s also, when they come back, talk about it together as a team.
Chris Hsiung: I was just going to add on to the book club. The huge benefit there—and this is for all your listeners who are leaders or want to aspire to be a leader—there is something magical that happens when you learn together, not you as your rank, right? And that’s one of the founding rules that both Jack and I had, is you really put rank aside in these environments to learn. When you actually learn and walk through a book, it could be any book, together, something magical happens that we don’t see in our industry a lot. And that comes to benefit you later on when you are working in a team environment, and rank structure comes back into place. You’ve just been down a journey of learning something together, and so you’re that much closer, and you start to understand the nuances of the team that you have and the team that you’re working with.
Jim Dudley: Yeah, 100%. And to unpack a little bit of what was just said, I started laughing when you described the old retired guys going in and holding these leadership courses. But I’m with you, I’ve been to some of those, even the executive leadership course where they’re handing out these Xerox—and I say Xerox because I, you know, I am a throwback—but Xerox or copied copies of copies of copies that are almost too blurry to read sometimes. But I think we’re moving from that, and I think, you know, virtual reality training is a game changer, exposing leaders to situations where they might otherwise freeze. And so, to your point of the book clubs, I love that idea. For the forums, you know, that we see with chiefs getting together at a PERF conference or an IACP conference, I think those are great, but sometimes I find those to be echo chambers and not necessarily innovative. What do we need to do to get chiefs to speak freely? You know, we go around the room, and everybody agrees to one concept. How do you get the courage to be the person to speak up at those conferences and say, “Hey, maybe we should try this instead?”
Chris Hsiung: You know, it has a lot to do with modeling vulnerability, and by that, I mean this: If you were to look at—Jack and I were both privileged to be on the start of The Curve, right? And what really set that group apart for all of us was sitting around the fireplace, just kind of being vulnerable. And I remember Simon asking us, “How are you all doing, honestly? How are you doing? What’s going right, and what’s going wrong?” And, you know, not everyone shared, and that was okay, but those that did really opened up about how difficult it was to be a leader at this point in time in history and policing. And you start to understand that you’re not alone, right? It’s very, very powerful because we are fantastic at putting up a front and pretending that we’re great. And really, the biggest elephant in the room is no one’s doing that great; everyone is struggling in one shape or form. But when you lead with that kind of leadership, it really projects confidence, right? It tells everyone else in the room it’s okay, but you know what? There’s power in us being together and us acknowledging that, and there’s so much institutional knowledge in those types of settings that we can draw on that, but we just got to get past this kind of machismo, like everything is great, and we’re just going to pretend like it is until we go. Right? Fake it till you make it. But I think genuine leadership calls for something much deeper.
Jack Cauley: Yeah, I totally agree with that. I think it’s a mindset change, right? It’s a mindset change, and we’re talking a lot about change, but policing has been—traditions are great, but we also need to recognize that from a leadership perspective, it’s okay to change, and we need to change, and we need to move forward. And part of that is going to be recognizing that leadership styles need to change. We’re here for the people that we lead, and if we continue with the same leadership styles that we all grew up under, we’re not—that’s not what our newer officers are looking for. And I think that leadership means leading the way, right? Being the first. And I think that having the courage, like Chris had mentioned, to talk about it and be out there, and this is part of it. Chris and I feel like it’s important that we recognize change. And I know that there are some people who probably aren’t going to agree with what we’re talking about, but that’s okay. And so what we’re doing today and, you know, podcasts like this, or talking at IACP or talking to our peers about the importance of culture and things that we haven’t talked about in the past might be uncomfortable at first, but I think it’s an important piece of moving our profession forward.
Jim Dudley: Yeah, and you do that by talking about and writing about one by one policing. Chief Cauley, tell us what that’s about.
Jack Cauley: Sure. So, one by one policing is, again, it’s a mindset change. It’s changing this idea of serving a group of people or serving a community to serving individuals and ensuring that individuals that we’re serving have what they need because every individual is different in what they need. So it’s about ensuring that we’re doing that, that we’re creating safe and secure environments that are both psychologically safe and physically safe where people can thrive. And certainly, it has two components. One of them is outward-based, right, is the community. So a quick example is, you know, years ago, my mom was involved in a traffic crash. Nobody got hurt, and that was great. Both my brother and I were police officers at the time in different communities nearby. We couldn’t respond because we were in our own jurisdictions, but we knew that the officer handling the crash knew that it was our mom, right? So we knew he was treating our mom like it was his mom. And so we took, you know, it really helped us. Our stress level went down. It’s like, okay, Mom’s going to be taken care of. But everybody that we come in contact with, everybody in the community that we’re helping, it’s somebody’s mom, dad, brother, or sister. So the idea is that our officers’ mindset changes from, “Oh, it’s a community member,” to “It’s somebody’s mom, dad, brother, or sister.” And how would they want that officer to handle it if it was their mom? And if they look at it from that approach, then everything else is fine. If they forget to check a box on a report, fine. We’ll go back and fix it because, you know, that’s okay. But it’s that mindset of being empathetic and compassionate to individuals like you would want people to handle or treat your family members. But the one by one policing actually starts within our department, right? So as leaders, it’s important for us to serve our individuals, our team members as individuals so that they get what they need, so that they can thrive, so that they can have a safe and secure environment both physically and psychologically. And as a policing profession, we haven’t really talked about psychological safety very often, right? It’s somewhat of a new concept for us, but it’s so, so important in today’s world, especially when we’re talking about officer wellness and the importance of that. But the whole idea is that when we have created a healthy workplace, a healthy culture, that police officers and professional staff who work in that environment are best able to go out into the community and serve the community and ensure the community is safe. So, in a nutshell, that’s what one by one policing’s all about.
Jim Dudley: Yeah, and so you’re talking about empathetic leadership, right? And so I’m wondering about training. And Sheriff Hsiung, maybe you can jump in here about—you talked about the paramilitary organization, and certainly we do that in our policing. Can we expect this sort of order and command presence training to equate to being empathetic on the street? Are we preparing officers to do that?
Chris Hsiung: You know, I think what falls short is we often tell our officers, “Yeah, you should be empathetic to the public,” but we don’t model that internally with the way we treat our staff, right? And I often, when I teach, I ask the room, “How many of you have worked for a boss who’s perfect, right, and who just carries himself like it’s terrible? No one likes doing it.” And the biggest secret in the room is, well, they’re not perfect because, you know, behind the scenes, when the officers meet up, they’re going to be pinpointing all the mistakes they made. So let’s flip that around. And I remember the very first command staff meeting I had as a brand new chief. I looked around the room and said, “Hey, we’re all going to make mistakes. I’m going to make mistakes, and we’re going to make them together. We’re going to fall forward, and it’s okay because I have complete confidence in everyone here in the room that no matter what gets thrown at us, one or more of us has the experience or the knowledge or the wisdom to get us through that,” right? That resetting of vulnerability and empathy makes it okay to fall forward, right? I always told people, especially when I was an FTO, I’d rather you make the mistakes now. I want you to make the little mistakes because that will keep you from making the colossal mistakes that will jeopardize your career, get someone hurt, or something like that. But again, in this profession, we like to pretend that everything’s great, everything’s perfect. The supervisors who make no mistakes create this kind of almost impossibility where they’re the ones that typically will have the giant colossal mistakes because no one wants to make a mistake on that team, right? So I think empathy goes a long way. If we don’t model it ourselves internally, there’s no way that we expect our officers or deputies out on the streets to take on that same humility and confidence in serving our public.
Jack Cauley: I totally agree with that, and I think, again, that’s something that maybe we haven’t done that great of a job with as a profession. If you think about it this way, you have a police officer that works in an environment that’s—let’s say it’s toxic. It’s not a good working environment; the culture isn’t good. And that officer goes out into the field, and they’re handling all types of different calls, right? You know, maybe it’s domestic, an assault, or whatever it is. So you have an officer that has been working in that toxic environment, and now they’re going to go handle this critical situation that’s fast-moving, it’s dangerous, and the chances of something going wrong there are increased versus the officer that works in an environment that is supportive, that they like coming to work, you know?
Jim Dudley: What gives the officers the freedom to do that?
Jack Cauley: Sure. So, Chris talked about modeling, and I think that is so important. You take, for example, an officer that works in a work environment, a workplace culture that is toxic, it’s not good. If they’re handling critical situations out in the field, the chances of something going wrong are increased. Conversely, an officer that works in an environment that is positive, they’re supportive, it’s a good culture—when those officers are handling critical incidents, the chances of something going right are increased. So, as far as the modeling part of it, it’s so important as leaders that we’re very intentional about creating positive workplace environments, that we’re creating good cultures that are healthy for our police officers and professional staff so that they are best equipped to serve the communities that we are sworn to protect and serve.
Jim Dudley: Yeah, and going back to one of the biggest issues in policing today, that’s recruiting, right? The surveys that we see coming back, a lot of the current officers are saying they would not recommend joining their department, and that’s huge. So I think a lot of those questions also reflect back on the leadership at their agencies. It’s a huge blow to recruiting. How do we change those attitudes?
Jack Cauley: Well, I think that there’s a lot of different things that we can do to change those attitudes. One is that we have to continue to evolve as leaders and, again, move forward and ensure we’re practicing positive leadership qualities. But I think a lot of it goes back to, number one, culture—the culture that the leaders within an organization are creating. We have to be intentional about that. We have to ensure that we’re earning the trust of the community and that we’re telling our story to the community as a whole so that people understand the work that we do. And I think when you create that trust, then that really creates an environment where officers want to come work. So, you know, we’re in a hiring process right now, and I always ask officers when I’m talking to them, “Well, you pretty much can go anywhere you want to be a police officer. Why did you pick Castle Rock? Why are we here today talking?” And, you know, it’s amazing, but the answer is almost always the community support, the support of your elected officials, of the police department, and also the culture of the police department. So they know about our one by one policing, and I’ve had several say, “Yeah, it’s your one by one policing. I know I’m coming to a good culture, and that we’re going to be supported.” And what we found is that our officers are our best recruiters. So when you create that type of culture, there are so many benefits to it, right? It’s for officer wellness, for recruiting, for retention, for earning community trust—all of that. That’s why culture really is such a big piece of what we’re talking about.
Chris Hsiung: I’d love to jump in on that because I think if you listen as I’m listening to Jack talk, right, the biggest thing and the biggest missed opportunity I think agencies have is recruiting efforts always focus on the “what,” right? Pay, equipment, cool toys, whatever you call it. But what Jack just described was the “how” and the “why,” and that approach is very different. When you market, you know, how they do policing in Castle Rock is the differentiator, and that’s what’s drawing people there. Why they do policing, right, is the kind of undertone of their just cause, right? That’s what their community ascribes to; that’s why their elected officials love them. And so if you focus on those things in your recruitment efforts and your marketing campaigns, that’s going to go way further because I hate to say it, and I’m saying this as a former SWAT guy myself, it’s cool to have those clips, but we all know, unless you’re like in some major metropolitan city, call-outs are far and few between. But look at the recruitment videos we see out there. It’s the SWAT people making entry, and that’s great. That’s a small sliver of what we do, but your day-to-day of how we police the communities we police is a way bigger story.
Jim Dudley: So you’re saying that the ad with the guy rappelling from a helicopter with a K9 under his arm and a couple of hand grenades is no good?
Chris Hsiung: Yeah, happens every day, a couple of times a week.
Jim Dudley: All right. Well, I want to talk about developing leadership at the department level, but first, I’d like to take a quick moment and thank our sponsor.
Jim Dudley: And we’re back. I’m speaking with Chief Jack Cauley and Under Sheriff Chris Hsiung on leadership. Sheriff Hsiung, tell us about empathetic leadership. How can we use it to gain confidence by veteran officers and new recruits as well?
Chris Hsiung: Well, I think we’ve alluded to it before, where you walk into a room, and we’ve seen this leadership style a lot, right? The top-down authoritarian, heavily based on rank, heavily based on title or tenure, right? And I hate to say it, but a lot of our cultures—what happens when we invest all this time and energy in a recruit, we get them through the academy, they hit our front step, and they hit the FTO program, and they’re belittled, they are hazed, and kind of like, “Hey, rookie, sit there in the corner. You’re seen and not heard.” We, you know, and Jack tells a story of—you contrast that with how engineers at like Airbnb are treated like in Silicon Valley. Engineers are revered, right? And they fight for them, and what they get, their first onboarding experience, is just—the company knows that this is the core of their product line, right? In many ways, our recruit officers are the core of our police, right? They’re the frontline folks. And what do we do? We do the opposite, right? And we kind of make them feel terrible. But I think empathetic leadership is what I described before, where—and I loved doing this when I was a chief—I would go visit the police academies, and these are recruits, and I would bring them lunch, and we’d sit down, and in a typical academy setting, everyone is bracing, they’re standing at attention. And the first thing I would do is say, “Hey, look, the stars are not here. I’m just here to check in on you. How are you doing? How’s your family doing in this experience? Are you able to spend some quality time with them?” That’s what it’s about, right? And I don’t know how the academy directors feel about it because I’m chuckling because all the other recruits, you can tell, they’re all looking like, “What in the world is this chief doing talking to their recruits?” And it’s a first-name basis thing because I want them to know that I’m genuinely caring about them as humans. And I will tell them, “Family comes first. This job comes second. You’re hearing it right from the top.” And because I believe firmly that if things are good at home, things are going to be good at work. And if things are not good at home, it’s going to affect the work product. So it really does take leaders at every level to model that type of environment because you’re going to create the environment, and your people are going to thrive in it, right? Your job as a leader is not to create carbon copies of yourself; it’s to create the environment so that people can thrive and grow to be the leaders they’re meant to be with the talent set that they have. And we’re all different, right? A true mark of a leader isn’t creating little clones of yourself on a team, which we’ve seen that before as well. And it’s not to out-arrest your whole team and, you know, have the highest stats. It’s really to provide that support, that environment that people just thrive in, and they love coming to work, right? That’s the key—when you tap into that, and it’s okay for them to go chase their dreams, and it’s going to benefit the department, it’s going to benefit that team, and the community is going to love it.
Jack Cauley: So true. And I’ll just jump in real quick. So when Chris told me about going to the academy and having lunch with them, I thought that was a great idea. So we started doing it, and it’s the same thing. You know, we walk in, and the other recruits are going, “Oh, what happened? How come your chief and commanders were there or whatever?” And it’s really cool, and they really—it’s a small gesture. It really didn’t take much. You know, we went up there, had lunch, and left. But they—it really meant a lot. And it’s just things like that—modeling that piece of it. And back to what Chris was talking about on onboarding new people and how it relates to the technology sector, it’s true. The technology sector on engineers, you know, let’s, for example, they’ll come in, and they’re treated very well on day one. How do we treat our brand new people? And, you know, again, I go back to interviewing potential applicants, and when I am talking about culture, they’ll tell me about how—I mean, it’s 2024, and we still have officers who are telling me about how they were in their FTO program. You know, their FTO, their trainer would say, “Hey, what intersection are we at?” And they can’t say that immediately, like, “Well, get out and do 15 push-ups.” Like, are you kidding me? But, you know, that’s a contrast of what we’re doing. And I think that listeners may or may not be wondering what are some immediate things we can do? One of them is to find out how your FTO program is working. You know, how are your brand new police officers being treated within an organization? Be intentional about asking those questions and ask them, “Hey, how are things going?” But I think that just that small intentional act could be something that a chief might find out. It’s like, “Oh, now what happened?” Or, “Are we hazing our people?” And it could be little things. We have to get away from that. It’s another example of moving away from some things that we’ve done in this profession that can make a difference.
Jim Dudley: Yeah, and I think, Chris, you talked about the approach and, you know, first-name basis and all that, but more importantly, the family-life balance. And that really resonates with today’s recruit, the Gen Z recruit, who says, “Hey, man, I don’t want to join the—if I want to join the Army, I’ll join the Army.” And the work-life balance keeps coming up over and over again. They don’t want to seek the identity that they are becoming this uniform. And so I think that’s a great approach, especially for our new people.
Chris Hsiung: No, I was just going to say, you know, and I think there’s that adage that you kind of see or hear about, that, you know, everyone you deal with is generally dealing with something that they’re not talking about or sharing about. And that applies to our employees; that applies to our teams, right? And so when you acknowledge that—and you might have some listeners out there going, “Oh, this is a soft brand of policing or whatever.” It’s not; it’s always been there. But, you know, we see this—like, we know what happens with alcohol and divorce rates and everything like that. And really, the time has come to acknowledge that and to really start caring for our people. Because, you know, you look at most of the disenfranchised folks, you know, it really comes down to there’s something going on that we’re just not peeling the onion back and addressing.
Jim Dudley: Yeah, for sure. And in that vein, how do we respond better to the criticism that we’re seeing in the public and in the media? What’s the leadership role? What’s the message to the troops or at a community meeting, say?
Chris Hsiung: Well, Chris is the PIO guy, so... but I’ll weigh in. I think that, number one, we have to be transparent. You know, we talk about that a lot, but we have to be transparent, we have to be honest, and we have to admit mistakes if we make them. But I think that when we earn the trust internally and earn that trust externally, that’s the first thing that has to happen. And I think that, you know, then that’s your building block on moving forward. And I think that, you know, again, a profession—we would tend to maybe not want to talk about things, if you will. And I think what we’re finding is talking about it more, being more humanistic, being able to connect to people is so, so important. So I think that, yeah, we’re going to have criticism. Some of the criticism is actually warranted, some of the criticism isn’t warranted, but maybe it’s because people don’t understand because we don’t talk about it, we don’t explain—let’s say, body-worn camera footage. We don’t explain what happened here and the fact that what you’re seeing on the body-worn camera footage isn’t exactly what the officer sees. So some of it is just about educating. But, so I think being transparent, educating, and admitting our mistakes and talking about it and moving forward is important. I think that internally, again, that trust component is so important. And also, supporting the officer, supporting your team, and being there for when, you know, we make mistakes. Okay, you made a mistake. Let’s move on. Let’s work together on it. And, I don’t know, I think we just have to be more humanistic. We have to be more connecting with our officers on a human level and the same way with our community members.
Jim Dudley: Yeah. So the leadership role in responding to criticism from the public, you know, we talk about transparency all the time. And, you know, some chiefs are really hesitant after a critical incident or an officer-involved shooting, maybe, you know, for liability issues, or maybe you just don’t know all the facts, right? Of course, we don’t have forensics or a full investigation, so you might be hesitant to talk about specifics. But how do we respond to the public?
Chris Hsiung: The biggest missed opportunity is when people feel truly heard or not, right? So a lot of times, in a press conference setting, you might hear the chief get up and say something like, “Well, what happened happened. Here’s the factual parts of it, but they’re good cops,” right? And that’s true; all of that’s factually true. But you have a community of concerned individuals, and they’re coming with their concerns. They don’t want to be thrown facts; you know, facts thrown their way—they want to be heard. And that skill of just kind of any sort of basic communication, whether it’s one-on-one or one-to-the-whole-public, is to really understand. And it’s a skill that needs to be exercised and trained, and you grow on it, but that skill of making sure that people feel truly heard, that’s the first step of any sort of negotiation or, you know, tense moment or de-escalating something. And we did this in Mountain View when, you know, in the summer of 2020, people had a ton of concerns. You know, we could have gone into those community meetings talking about how we’ve done all this training and how we ascribe to POST standards, but we sat there in a room, and I instructed my officers before that, “Say, you know what? What’s really important here is that we listen. We honestly listen, and we don’t form a defense or a rebuttal as soon as, you know, we throw down all the tactics or the trainings we’ve gone to. Just listen.” And it’s really amazing when that happens, and we tell them, “It’s okay to get a little uncomfortable.” You know, we, as a society, we’ve forgotten how to disagree with people, and that’s a skill as well. But when you teach that, and you’re there with your officers side-by-side, you go, “Hey, let’s just listen to what you’re hearing, what your concerns are.” And everything—your body language, your non-verbal cues—you can’t just be up there kind of like rolling your eyes, right? That’s true leadership, right? And that’s what the public demands, and they’re rightfully so. They should demand that of our leaders and of ourselves.
Jim Dudley: Yeah, that’s really tough, too, for cops to be listeners because, you know, we’re trained to go out to a situation, assess, you know, do the OODA loop—observe, orient, decide, and act—and get the heck out and go on to the next one. So, counterintuitive for a lot of cops to just sit there and listen. So, being respectful of your time, I appreciate the time you’re spending with us today. Last wrap-up, and that is that you guys are futurists. I see it in your being—you’re both futurists. What can we expect over the next five years? Make it easy. What’s happening over the next five years? Are things going our way, or are we one step away from the next critical incident? How are we doing? What’s the pulse?
Jack Cauley: I’ll jump in. I’m very optimistic about where we are and where we’re moving. I really am, and not just from a leadership perspective, but also the new officers that we’re bringing on. I think they’re really embracing the purpose of police, which is to protect the vulnerable from harm. And I think as long as we as leaders can pay attention to that and ensure that they’re getting what they need, I really think that we’re at a good point. And actually, I kind of, in a way, wish I was starting now because there’s going to be some really, I think, exciting things happening. But I think where we’re going—technology is going to continue to play a major role in how we do business, and I think we need to make sure that we embrace that. So ensuring that you are creating a culture of innovation, that it’s okay to try something new, and if it doesn’t work, then that’s okay. Move on to the next thing. And what we found is the officers embrace that wholeheartedly; they want to be able to do that. So I think technology is going to continue with, you know, whether it’s AI and, you know, body-worn cameras writing the reports for you, or it’s drones, or cameras, or license plate readers. All those things are here today, but it’s just the tipping—it’s just the tip of the spear, right? We’ll continue to see that progress. It’s going to be pretty exciting to see what happens in five years from now. But I think officer wellness is going to be a major initiative that more and more police departments are going to be investing in for the officers and professional staff. And I think that mental health issues in the community and how we address those with co-responder programs and things like that, I think we’re going to continue to see improvements in our profession. If you think about it, the last five years—what we’ve seen in the last five years is pretty significant versus what I saw in the first five years of my career, which wasn’t a whole lot of movement, right? But we’ve seen so much, and I really am excited to see what we’re going to see going forward. But it’s going to be good. I’m optimistic.
Chris Hsiung: I guess for me, you can’t talk about the future of policing without talking about AI, right? And so there’s a lot of that, and it’s like, how does that affect us? And that’s probably a whole new podcast topic for you. But since this one’s more about leadership and culture, I think, you know, we’re coming into an election year. If we look at the past, we know that foreign countries have tried to interfere and create dissension. I just saw a bulletin the other day about how there’s, you know, actively other governments are trying to really get things broiling, right? So we’re going to see civil unrest, right? But I think to Jack’s point, you know, we’ve learned so much in the last few years on how to communicate as leaders and how to be in the community, be part of the community. That’s what I see as the counterbalance to those efforts that I just talked about. But what’s really exciting is, you know, as Jack and I have kind of gone around the country and put on these talks about culture, more and more you see the people who hang out after the talk, and there’s a line forming, and they know these are leaders, these are the IACP, the PERF, whatever convention or conference we’re at. And it’s great to know that there’s a groundswell, almost a grassroots effort of leaders—a new generation of leaders—who understand the importance that culture plays and understand their new role. Because as you look across the country, most of the chiefs and sheriffs and command staffs, they’re all pretty new. They come to the table with less time on than their predecessors did, right? That’s just a generational thing. But there’s opportunity in that as well, right? New thoughts, new ways to lead. And so I’m excited like Jack, and it’s great. It’s a great time to be a leader. This is the time that I think your listeners—and you don’t have to have rank to be a leader, just want to put it out there—you can be an influencer on your teams. You’re sitting there, and you’re thinking, “You know what? My chief or my sheriff doesn’t think this way.” Well, that’s great. Create that environment on your own team then, and your admin will start to recognize the amazing things that you’re doing.
Jim Dudley: Nice. Well, great wrap-up. I totally appreciate it, and I agree with you both about the leadership, about, you know, that leaders are really embracing change. And AI, of course, yeah, we’re looking at Axon’s Draft One—I just wrote an article about it—and yeah, I think in order to fill the gaps of our personnel shortage, we’re really going to have to depend on some of those things we just talked about. Hey, thank you both for being on the show—Chief Jack Cauley and Under Sheriff Chris Hsiung on leadership. And we could find you on The Curve, and we’re going to see some of your articles in links in the show notes below. Thank you so much for spending time with us today.
