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Traffic stops are one of the most common points of interaction between police and community members, yet they can be fraught with misunderstanding, fear and tension. This disconnect has fueled mistrust and, in some cases, escalated into conflict. Recognizing the urgent need to address these challenges, Dwayne Bryant wrote “The Stop: Improving Police and Community Relations.”
In this episode of the Policing Matters podcast, host Jim Dudley talks to Bryant about the inspiration behind his book and strategies to build trust, and create safer, more constructive encounters during traffic stops.
About our sponsor
This episode of the Policing Matters podcast is sponsored by OfficerStore. Learn more about getting the gear you need at prices you can afford by visiting OfficerStore.com.
About our guest
International speaker and best-selling author, Dwayne Bryant is known for his high energy, intellect, wit and unique hands-on presentation style, which captures the attention of his diverse audiences. As an industry expert and thought-leader, Dwayne is highly sought-after by corporations, nonprofit organizations, law enforcement, and academic institutions for his proven ability to teach step-by-step strategies which build healthy sustainable relationships in communities and workplaces.
Using these experiences as a foundation, Dwayne founded Inner Vision International, Inc. (IVI) which has been focused on developing results-oriented social emotional curricula and professional development workshops for students, parents, teachers, law enforcement, academic institutions, and Corporate America for more than 27 years.
Additional resources
- The Stop: Improving Police and Community Relations by Dwayne Bryant
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Episode transcript
Jim Dudley: I’m your host, Jim Dudley. Hey, be sure to check out our video versions of the Policing Matters podcast on YouTube on Police1’s YouTube.
Well, we’ve heard from experts on the subject of vehicle stops or car stops by police officers, usually from the perspective of police officers. A good friend of mine, Jason Leman, has talked about behaviors by both parties at the stop — from the motorist and the officer perspectives — when he talks about his program, the “Why’d You Stop Me?” workshop. And I know he’s in Northern California, taking his program around to different agencies there.
Today, we’ll hear from the community perspective. Mr. Dwayne Bryant is an internationally acclaimed speaker and best-selling author of the book “The Stop: Improving Police and Community Relations,” a timely guide that focuses on educating youth and facilitating meaningful dialogues between communities and law enforcement.
Well, welcome to Policing Matters, Mr. Dwayne Bryant!
Dwayne Bryant: Great to be here, sir. Thank you for having me.
Jim Dudley: Oh, great to have you. Now, “STOP” stands for “Support The Teaching of Principles.” What was your background that gave you the inspiration to write this book on car stops?
Dwayne Bryant: Sure, absolutely. For the last 26 years, my company has been developing social-emotional learning, life management, and character education programs for youth. We’ve worked in Florida, Chicago, Memphis, Seattle, Pennsylvania, Arizona and elsewhere.
We try to provide life skills for young people so they can be better, more productive human beings. We teach goal setting, time management, conflict resolution, bullying education, study skills, leadership, and so on.
One day, I was on the south side of Chicago working with fourth, fifth, and sixth graders and asked a simple question: “If you’re on the playground playing, minding your own business and doing nothing wrong, and a police car drove over, what would you do?” Jim, what do you think they said they’d do?
Jim Dudley: Run?
Dwayne Bryant: Yeah. Surprisingly, they said, “Run.” I said, “Well, wait a second. You’re doing nothing wrong. Why would you run?” These kids said, “Because we don’t want to be harassed. We don’t want the police to stop us from going home. And we don’t want to get shot.”
One bigger boy said, “Well, I won’t run, but if they disrespect me, I’m going to disrespect them.”
So, I’m sitting there as an adult thinking, “Oh my God, these are literally fourth, fifth, and sixth graders who will become 11, 12, and eventually adults. If that’s their thought about law enforcement at such a young age, it can only get worse.”
So, I decided I needed to be a force for good — or at least a bridge — to bring this gap together. My father was a police officer, and I wanted him to come home. Chapter two of the book will tell you what kind of police officer he was — he was the kind who would beat you across the head, which is why he had the nickname “Bull Bryant.”
I just knew that I didn’t feel like enough was being done to bridge this gap and create some level of calm between police and community. So, I was willing to stand in the gap.
Jim Dudley: All right, I get all that. Based on your experience with these kids, do you see any of the community policing outreach efforts working? Things like cops stopping to shoot hoops or talking with kids to just get that dialogue going — does any of that work?
Dwayne Bryant: I think it does work, but I think there’s no silver bullet. You have cynical people on both sides saying, “Oh, they want to play basketball, but that doesn’t solve the problem.”
Yeah, you’re right, it doesn’t solve the problem. But there’s no one-size-fits-all solution. Realistically, this problem has existed for centuries.
These initiatives help, but they’re not the only thing that needs to be done.
Jim Dudley: For sure. I think it’s like the Westinghouse theory: you’ve got to do something. We’ve had Officer Plunkett from Irving, Texas, talk about his barbershop program where he just goes into barbershops, hangs out, and talks with people there. It’s been successful in creating community partnerships. Now, many in our audience serve as frontline officers in their agencies. What should they know about the individual who gets pulled over by police? What are they thinking?
Dwayne Bryant: I would say it depends on the individual. If the person is Black, Hispanic, or brown, generally speaking, they’re scared as hell — not everyone, but many.
I’m college-educated, went to school on a full academic scholarship, never been in jail, never been handcuffed, and have no criminal history. But if I see those red lights pulling me over, I’m thinking, “Oh shoot. What did I do? Was I speeding?”
I have friends in the FBI who tell me, “D, as an FBI agent with my firearm on my side, I still get nervous when I get pulled over.”
So, I think both police and community need to understand that often, everyone’s scared. If everyone’s afraid, what do we do as human beings — not just as police or community — to mitigate the fear?
We don’t want a 20-minute traffic stop to derail 20 years of any one of our lives.
Jim Dudley: Absolutely. And for the record, I get scared too. But my fear is more monetary — I fear getting that ticket, having to go to court, or getting points on my DMV record.
I think we all have different fears, right? Some might fear being picked out for the wrong reason, others might fear the violation itself, and some might fear getting caught hiding something.
But I don’t think any of us expect to be pulled over so the officer can compliment us on our car or say, “Hey, you’re a great driver.”
Dwayne Bryant: Exactly. They’re not going to pull you over to say, “Nice silver hair, Jim!” Even though your silver hair does look pretty good on this Zoom call.
Jim Dudley: Thanks for the compliment. I appreciate that.
The nation has been influenced by the “Resist” movement. I actually looked it up, and there’s a website dedicated to resist and resistance. Isn’t that part of the problem? Across all races, genders and ethnicities, we have different groups for different reasons saying they’re going to resist. We have people claiming to be sovereign citizens.
Shouldn’t it be as simple as, “Officer says I stopped you for a red light violation. License and registration, please. I’ll run a check and either give you a warning or a ticket,” and boom, it’s over?
Why the resistance during these stops?
Dwayne Bryant: That’s a beautiful question, and I’ll answer it with two points.
First, according to science, for every action, there’s an equal and opposite reaction. So, when we witness something as egregious as a man being murdered on camera for over nine minutes, that’s the action we all see. The reaction, based on science, is “Forget you. We don’t care what you have to say. I disrespect you because I have no value for you.”
So, the question becomes, which came first — the chicken or the egg? Both are present, so let’s address both. So I think the “Resist” movement came as a result of consistently seeing actions that were not being held accountable, so therefore we create this reaction.
Now, regarding question, I agree with you. If you’re driving, you’re supposed to have a driver’s license. That’s the law. So why are you driving without it? This isn’t a constitutional inquiry.
I tell the community — and I work with young people — when you pull up to a stop sign, you’re taught to look both ways. Look right, to your future. Where do you see yourself 10 or 20 years down the road? Don’t let this incident impact that. Then, look left.
Consider the officer. You don’t know what kind of day they’re having. They may be having a bad day — they’re human too. Chris Voss calls this “tactical empathy.” Calm your emotions, calm your fear, and at least give the officer the benefit of the doubt.
Both law enforcement and the community need to engage in human interaction. Yes, there are bad human beings — some wear badges, and some are community members. But we’ve seen so much that we can’t just say, “It’s a few bad apples” anymore.
I believe the resist movement came about as a direct result of people seeing too much and getting tired. But when you’re pulled over, it’s our job as community members to facilitate the officer’s job and make it easier for them.
Jim Dudley: I hear what you’re saying. But isn’t the media part of the problem? Out of thousands of car stops, the ones we see on the news or social media are anecdotal — they’re the one-offs, or maybe they involve an officer abusing their power. But the fact that we’re seeing these isolated incidents on the nightly news or on social media makes it seem bigger. Isn’t that contributing to the problem?
Dwayne Bryant: Well, I wouldn’t say it’s part of the problem because like it exists, right? So let’s say if the reality is less than 3%, I think that’s what the number is, less than 3% of all police and we’re talking about hundreds of thousands of stops a day popping around the country. So 3%, everyone would say, if I got a 97% on the grade, I’m pretty cool with that grade got an A. But unfortunately, that 3% that may go bad is what the news media cover. They don’t show the officer with the great stop. They don’t show the Black guys who had a flat tire and the officers went out. Cause I’ve seen this before. I was like, that’s so interesting. These guys got the locks. They got the pants sagging, but the police officers. Actually, they’re helping them change their tires, that I posted, I said, I bet you would never see this on the news. But the news has to do their job and their job is to get ratings. Unfortunately, we prefer garbage than we do love. You and I talking on this show right now, we’ll probably not go viral. But if I was to call you a jerk, and slap you and you pull out a gun. We’d go viral. For some reason we prefer filth than we do love and peace.
Jim Dudley: Yeah. Now I hear you. Yeah. If it bleeds, it leads that’s the media motto. Hey, what’s the primary issue? I mean, you’ve seen and you’ve dissected hundreds of car stops. What do you see as the primary issue for the escalation? Walk up to the car license and registration, then it goes sideways.
Dwayne Bryant: There are many primary issues, right? So, I go to several DOJ studies when they assess different police departments. Memphis was one, Chicago, Minneapolis. Many law enforcement officers have not been properly trained. Many of them have implicit bias on the job. Many of them are using firearms in a way that is not within the policy manual. So, there are many different lanes we can go around. If we look at the community, many don’t understand their responsibility. A friend of mine was telling me when she got pulled over, her teenage brother was in the car, and he’s just start panicking, so he dropped his cell phone. So, he’s looking down trying to get his phone like, I want to record this, and she stopped him, because when the police officer sees this, you don’t know what’s going on. I think what is happening with police stops is that everyone is scared. When I got pulled over my police encounter went viral and right now the Indiana State Police is still using some of that footage called Do it Right, when the officer said every stop I don’t know if this is going to be the day that I have to use all of my training, or this is the day that I may lose my life. And I was like, oh, wait a minute, you’re thinking that. I said honestly, I’m thinking the same thing in reverse. I don’t know if this is the day I’m going to lose my life, or this is the day that it’s just going to be a good stop. So that’s when I realized it was a Eureka moment which happened like, two months after my conversation with the students that whoa, I’m scared as hell out here. The difference is you got a gun and the law on your side. I don’t have those things on my side. So it behooves me to be mindful of my actions, but I also believe it behooves the officer to be mindful of his or her actions as well.
Jim Dudley: Yeah, good point that you bring up about training and especially towards the end of a of a police academy. Sometimes they move it to the middle, but generally towards the end they do sims or simulations and you have these car stops or home visits where they are escalated quickly to see what the young officers’ response is going to be and then they turn them out loose. So training, do you think that training has something to do with the reactions by some officers on stops and if so, what do we do about it?
Dwayne Bryant: Absolutely. Let me break it down into two points. First, it’s not just about training—it’s about who is doing the training. Even before someone becomes a law enforcement officer, do we know their implicit biases? Do we know their history?
The reality is, if I grew up in a certain way, it shapes my perceptions. I had a conversation with a wonderful officer. At first, we butted heads, but as we began to talk, I started to understand his perspective. He told me, “Listen, I grew up in an all-white town. I didn’t have Black friends, and what I saw about Black people was from the news. Or, if they came into our neighborhood, it usually meant trouble.”
I said, “I can’t be angry with you about that — that’s your reality. But guess what? I grew up in Eatonville, Florida, an all-Black town with a Black police department, Black fire department, Black gas stations, Black hotels and everything else. We didn’t want to hang out with white people. If they came to Eatonville, they were either looking for drugs or causing trouble. So, my perception of white people was the same as yours about Black people, just reversed.”
What we have to do is understand that if I’m going to engage with you — and especially if I’m wearing the uniform and badge — I have to constantly check my perceptions. These perceptions dictate my actions.
I teach my students:
- Your thoughts impact your words.
- Your words impact your behavior.
- Your behavior impacts your actions.
- Your actions impact your destiny.
With every stop, all of that is in play. Even before training begins, we need to know who the police officer is. Someone like Derek Chauvin is going to be a liability for any department. Why? Because his implicit biases and unchecked behaviors are not only costly and devastating to the community, but also to the department itself.
From my experience working with officers, most of them don’t want someone like that on the force. Those individuals are a liability to everyone.
This is why psychological profiling has to be a part of the process, along with training in communication skills like Verbal Judo. Some people simply don’t like police, and some are just afraid of them. If someone escalates and law enforcement feels the need to escalate in response to “win” or “be bigger and badder,” we’re only creating chaos.
Jim Dudley: I want to ask you about data and some of the studies and surveys that I know you’ve seen. But first I’d like to take a moment and thank our sponsor. And we’re back. And I’m speaking with Mr. Dwayne Bryant. He is a speaker and an author, and he does presentations to community members and the police on what to do about car stops. What are we thinking and how do we diffuse things? How do we both end up on a good term and going home. So, the Bureau of Justice Statistics does a supplemental survey on the National Crime Victimization Survey. Random phone calls, if you will, directly related to vehicle stops. What? What do they come up with? What was their conclusion?
Dwayne Bryant: You know that’s, and that’s a great question. I’m going to ask you the same question. I don’t know if I have the most recent data that you have, but if you can share it, I’d love to hear it.
Jim Dudley: Yeah. So, 2020 was the last survey that I’ve seen and it talks about the approaches. It talks about the small number of stops that go sideways and how important training is. So, I think there’s an emphasis on officer safety for good reasons. But those types of car stops that result in attacks on officers is relatively low. So I think it says essentially says to do what you’re doing, reach out, demystify the process. We’ve done a couple of shows here. I talked about Jason Lehman, but we talked about, you know, keep your hands on the steering wheel. Like you said before, you drop your cell phone, you don’t go reaching around that we. In law enforcement, we’re trained to see that as a furtive movement. Then you come up with this, you know, small black plastic object or black object in your hand. Yeah. I mean, those are things we’re trained to look for. I think we’ve got to be meeting on both ends of the spectrum and of the thousands of car stops they don’t end in armed confrontations or lethal encounters or even physical encounters. So, we need to be more transparent. We need to make sure that the individual knows why they’re stopped. We need to treat everyone cordially. Just the facts. License, registration, sign hard, three copies. Thank you. Have a nice day. Right. I think if go back to those basics, we’re good. But then we’ve got those encounters where, oh man, I’m driving with a suspended license. I’ve got something under my front seat. This car isn’t mine. I actually don’t know whose it is. Right? And I think we can. We can talk about terms of what goes on in our own minds, and we all think about the worst things that can happen, but hey, if you’re driving with a suspended license, unless there’s an order to take you in, it’s another citation. Pull over the car. Give me the keys. Let’s turn it over to the owner. If it’s stolen, then you’re going to get arrested. You’re going to have your day in court. So, all of that can be handled without a physical encounter and hopefully without going to weapons use or a fatal encounter. So, it’s good to look at those things, but those reports are so quantitative, right? They’re all about numbers and percentages, when we really need to look at qualitative, like what’s happening? How is it related to training? Then let’s fix training. Or if it’s happening because of a law that’s on the books, let’s make sure that every driver knows about the law. And then let’s make sure that everyone knows what can happen. Like, not every violation ends up in a custodial arrest, that there’s a possibility for a license for a license check, and then a citation, or maybe the car gets towed or something like that. But not everybody ends up going to jail. I think transparency has to be part of our strategy.
Here’s the cleaned-up and copyedited version of the text:
Dwayne Bryant: I agree with that. I also think it comes down to the individual officer as well as the individual being pulled over. Here’s a true story: after one of my trainings, an officer came up to me and said, “You know what? Thank you. This presentation did more for me than all the BS we’re constantly hearing about how I’m racist.”
He went on to admit, “Here’s a fact: when I was a younger officer, I used to walk behind Black guys and say, ‘Hey, what about that arrest warrant?’ And if they started running, I’d chase them, rough them up a little, and arrest them.”
I asked him, “Why would you do that?”
He replied, “Because if they didn’t have an arrest warrant, why would they run?”
I then asked, “But did you actually know whether or not they had a warrant?”
He said, “I didn’t, but why would they run?”
I told him, “That right there is part of the problem. Fight-or-flight responses are psychological and scientific reactions. Everyone reacts differently. Let me ask you this: do you think your adrenaline was pumping while you were running after them?”
He replied, “Yeah, of course.”
I said, “Well, their adrenaline and cortisol were pumping too. So what you’ve done is create a scenario — whether or not they actually had an arrest warrant. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. So, if that person struggles against you, and now it escalates to a fight where you ‘lawfully’ shoot them for resisting arrest, where did it all start? It started with your terrible behavior. That is not becoming of a police officer.”
He admitted, “I didn’t think about it at the time. That’s just what we were told to do — get those numbers up.”
This is why I believe law enforcement needs to take a hard look at itself first and ask, “What are we doing right? Let’s advertise that, broadcast it, and share those stories. Let’s pat ourselves on the back for the good we’re doing. But then, what are we doing wrong?”
The right way will outlast the wrong, but we can’t ignore the wrong. Once we identify it, we also need to address what’s happening in the community.
Take this example: Pookie is a drug dealer on the corner, and another person is trafficking children in the neighborhood. The community knows this, but they don’t tell law enforcement.
I always say, the only people who benefit when police and the community fail to work together are the criminals. It doesn’t matter if the criminal is wearing a hoodie or a badge. When law enforcement and the community don’t cooperate, criminals win.
We have to move past the “us vs. them” mentality. This polarization that’s happening in our nation is a big issue. America needs to wake up quickly because, globally, we’re not looking good.
If we can stop demonizing each other and hold everyone accountable, we can make real progress. That 3% of bad stops? We could cut that down to 1%. But even 3% — out of a million stops — means 30,000 incidents. That’s a lot of unnecessary violence.
Jim Dudley: That’s a good point. I want to go back to communication and the need to demystify certain things.
When I talk about driving in my criminal justice classes, I ask, “Is driving a right or a privilege?” Most students understand it’s a privilege. You have to get trained, learn the rules of the road, ride along with an instructor or evaluator, and then get signed off to receive your license.
But I always ask, “Do you remember signing that form where you agreed to submit to a test of your blood, breath, or urine if asked by a police officer?”
Most students say, “No, I don’t remember that.”
I explain to them, “This is implicit when you get your license. If an officer pulls you over for erratic driving or other violations and observes objective symptoms—like the smell of alcohol—they can pull you out of the car and conduct a field sobriety test.”
We’ve seen so many car stops where that defining moment happens:
- The driver says, “I’m not getting out.”
- “You can’t search me.”
- “I don’t have to show you anything.”
Well, legally, you do. I don’t think we teach this enough. There’s a miscommunication about the responsibilities and obligations of the driver when pulled over.
Dwayne Bryant: Absolutely. That’s where education comes in — not just for law enforcement but for the community as well.
For example, I often do reenactments with young people. I’ll say, “You’re walking home from school, and a police officer stops you. They say, ‘Hey, my name is Mr. Bryant. I’d like to talk to you,’ and then pat you down. Do I have the right to touch you at all?”
The students usually say, “No, you don’t.”
I respond, “Are there any circumstances where I *would* have the right to pat you down?”
They say, “No.”
Then I explain, “What if I got a call that four guys who match your description are carrying a weapon? That’s reasonable suspicion, which legally allows me to pat you down.”
They don’t know this. Instead, they respond emotionally, often reacting in ways that escalate the situation, even if they’re unknowingly in violation of the law.
This is why education and hands-on training are necessary — whether it’s through school resource officers, outside experts like me, or other initiatives.
We need to teach respect — not just community members respecting police, but also police respecting the community. Respect for authority has eroded in general. Many kids today don’t even respect their teachers.
We need to return to some of those old values and morals. This “anything goes” mentality is not sustainable in the long term.
Jim Dudley: I hear you. Respect for your time, I want to thank you so much for being on the show. Before we wrap up, I’d like to ask for your final thoughts: What else needs to be done? What should we be introducing or changing to make sure every car stop is handled better?
Dwayne Bryant: It really comes down to some simple principles.
First, treat others the way you want to be treated. That’s the foundation. Be respectful, understand your rights, and also understand the rights of the officer.
Second, create calm. Don’t let a 20-minute encounter derail 20 years of your life. That makes no sense. Remember, at the end of the day, we’re all human beings, and we all want the same thing: to get home safely.
Jim Dudley: Absolutely. Hey, in our show notes, we’ll include links to your book and website. But tell us — what else are you working on? Are you touring? Visiting police departments or community groups?
Dwayne Bryant: A couple of things I’m excited about: I’ve started a new clothing line called God Works and Love Is Everything. It’s available at https://dboriginals.com/. Whether I’m working with students in Memphis — who are 15, 16, or 17 years old and facing charges for first- or second-degree murder — or with law enforcement, parents, or teachers, I’m seeing a lack of two things:
1. A level of godliness.
2. A basic love for humanity.
I believe in reintroducing the idea that we are all our brothers’ and sisters’ keepers. That’s what the clothing line is about.
You can also check out my book and other resources at DwayneBryant.com. I also have a YouTube channel — just search for Dwayne Bryant. In the next two weeks, I’ll be back on the road visiting schools, police departments, and community groups, so you’ll be hearing more from me soon.
Jim Dudley: Thank you so much for joining us, Dwayne Bryant — speaker, author, and creator of “The Stop: Improving Police and Community Relations.” You’re doing God’s work, and we appreciate it.
Dwayne Bryant: Thank you, brother. And just so everyone knows, the book is available on Amazon. Even if you go to my website, there’s a direct link to Amazon to get it.
Jim Dudley: Sounds great. All right, listeners — let us know what you think about today’s show. Check out the links below and drop me a line at PolicingMatters@Police1.com.
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