Animal-related incidents, whether cases of neglect, cruelty or dangerous wildlife, can catch even seasoned law enforcement officers off guard. When responding to such cases, officers are often thrust into challenging situations, with limited resources and training on how to manage these unique encounters.
Addressing these gaps, the Humane Society’s Law Enforcement Training Center offers crucial guidance for officers to navigate these scenarios safely and effectively. This training empowers officers to recognize and respond to animal cruelty, fighting rings and wildlife-related incidents, helping protect both the community and the animals involved.
In this episode of the Policing Matters podcast, host Jim Dudley speaks with retired Chief Trevor Whipple, now a trainer with the Humane Society’s Law Enforcement Training Center, about the complexities of animal crime investigations. The episode highlights how proper training can help officers safely manage dangerous animals, gather evidence for prosecutions, and prevent tragic outcomes like the use of lethal force on family pets, which often leads to public outrage and lawsuits.
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About our guest
Chief Trevor Whipple is a law enforcement trainer with the Humane Society of the United States. He is a graduate of the FBI National Academy and served as a sworn law enforcement officer from 1980 until his retirement in 2018. During this time, he worked as a child sex crimes investigator, and member of a task force investigating crimes against women. Trevor led both the Barre City and South Burlington, Vermont police departments as their police chief. Upon his retirement from policing, Trevor became the Law Enforcement Consultant for the Vermont League of Cities and Towns where he serves as a resource to law enforcement agencies throughout the state. Trevor has been a member of the adjunct faculty at the Community College of Vermont, where he has instructed criminal justice courses for the past 16 years. He was the lead Juvenile Law instructor at the Vermont Police Academy from 1984 until 2018. He continues to train law enforcement across the country on animal cruelty and fighting investigations.
Memorable quotes
- “These are investigations with victims that don’t have voices. So, we’re having to build a case solely on evidence.”
- “Studies repeatedly show that individuals who perpetrate animal cruelty or neglect often go on to commit violence against humans.”
- “One big challenge is that this is moving evidence. We’re trained from day one to identify evidence, not touch it, photograph it in place, appropriately label it, collect it, package it and maintain a good chain of custody. Well, if you’ve got 40 cats running around a house, that’s going to be tough.”
Key takeaways
- Animal-related incidents require specialized training: Law enforcement officers frequently encounter animal-related incidents that extend beyond routine calls, including cases of cruelty, neglect, and encounters with wild animals. Without proper training, officers are left vulnerable, and the potential for tragic outcomes — such as unnecessary use of lethal force on family pets — becomes higher. This training not only prepares officers for these unique situations but also helps build community trust by preventing negative public relations outcomes.
- The Humane Society’s training fills a critical gap in law enforcement knowledge: The Humane Society’s Law Enforcement Training Center offers a range of specialized courses, such as animal cruelty investigations, dog fighting, and proper engagement in police-dog encounters. These courses emphasize evidence collection, de-escalation, and legal understanding. For officers in rural areas without animal control services, this training is crucial in preparing them to handle complex animal situations that they might otherwise be untrained to manage.
- The link between animal abuse and violent crimes is significant and often overlooked: There is a strong correlation between individuals who commit acts of animal cruelty and those who perpetrate violent crimes against humans, including domestic violence, child abuse, and even mass shootings. Officers trained to recognize signs of animal abuse can potentially uncover more severe criminal activity, using this as an early indicator to prevent further violence. Understanding this link is vital for building comprehensive criminal cases and protecting vulnerable communities.
- Proper handling of animals as evidence is vital for successful prosecutions: Unlike inanimate evidence, animals as evidence pose unique challenges, especially in long-term investigations. Officers must be meticulous in documenting and photographing animals at the scene, as improper handling or failure to preserve the conditions of the animals can lead to evidence suppression in court. The Humane Society emphasizes the importance of treating animals as crucial pieces of evidence while ensuring their care and well-being throughout the legal process.
- Collaboration and resource management are key during large-scale animal seizures: Large-scale animal cruelty cases, such as hoarding or fighting rings, can overwhelm local resources. Officers need to know how to build relationships with local animal control, agricultural agencies, and even neighboring counties to manage these cases effectively. In severe cases, such as the seizure of 82 Great Danes in New Hampshire, the Humane Society’s emergency response teams can provide critical support, but officers need the foresight to engage these networks before situations spiral out of control.
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Episode transcript
Jim Dudley: Hey, have you ever gone to a child neglect call only to discover dozens of emaciated dogs on the scene? What do you do when there’s no animal services to call for help and now you’re responsible for seizing multiple dogs?
Or have you ever gotten that call involving a vicious dog, a bird, a snake, a raccoon, or even a mountain lion or bear? I hear from fellow law enforcement officers across the country who show me snippets of pulling alligators out by the tail or trying to wrangle a snake or raccoon in somebody’s laundry room.
I’ve been talking to our guest today, and we’re discussing whether animals are creeping more into our territory or if we are building out into theirs. I think it’s the latter. In some places, we have the luxury of turning to Animal Services or Animal Control Officers, who do an outstanding job, much better than most law enforcement officers could do. But in smaller, rural areas, you may be the only game in town. Are you trained as you should be?
We have a guest today from the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) Law Enforcement Training Center. Trevor Whipple is a retired chief and a graduate of the FBI National Academy. He served as a sworn law enforcement officer from 1980 until his retirement in 2018. He’s also a member of the adjunct faculty at the Community College of Vermont, where he has instructed criminal justice courses for the past 16 years. With the HSUS Law Enforcement Training Center, Trevor continues to train law enforcement officers nationwide on animal crime investigations. Welcome to Policing Matters, Trevor Whipple.
Trevor Whipple: Well, Jim, thank you. It’s an absolute pleasure and honor to be here.
Jim Dudley: Great. Well, thanks for coming. I looked through the website, and I’ve got the links posted below. You do some really great stuff there. I look at the classes described in the curriculum: animal cruelty and fighting investigations, police and dog encounters, even equine horse cruelty investigations. Tell us a little bit about these, probably the first two, more germane to what a regular law enforcement officer might come across.
Trevor Whipple: Yeah, I mean, frankly, you know, as you point out, sometimes you just never know what you’re going to come across. Me, myself, working in the field for 38 years, every day is a surprise. But certainly, the courses that you’ve picked out of our catalog would be great to highlight. The first being animal cruelty and fighting investigations. That tends to be a full-day training, about eight hours, where we spend time talking about not so much how to do an investigation. Most times what we find is that people enter these classes with some basis already—they’ve been an enforcement official somewhere. Certainly, if they’re new, we’ll tailor it to somebody with fewer skills. But we’re looking at: what is animal cruelty? Each state defines it differently. Some states have much more robust laws; some states have pretty light laws. So, we have to work within what we have, and we work within those laws to help enforcement officers, whether they be police officers or humane officers, really understand how to identify if animal cruelty or neglect has taken place.
We may need a subject matter expert to help us. As you point out, maybe it’s a horse—I don’t know that much about horses. Or maybe I don’t know that much about an alligator. So, I might need to consult with somebody that does. But also, these are investigations with victims that don’t have voices. So, we’re having to build a case solely on evidence. We spend a lot of time on identifying evidence, the appropriate collection, labeling, and storage of evidence. These cases can be a challenge. You know, when I was a road officer, I was really well-schooled in how to identify drug evidence. You’d find a bag of heroin, photograph it in place, label it, bag it, put it in the evidence room, and then it would stay there for two years until the case was completed. But what if your evidence is a golden retriever? You’re not going to tag and bag your golden retriever and put it in an evidence room for two years. That’s a challenge. So, we talk about how to meet some of those challenges.
In the fighting investigations, not many officers in our country have had much experience in either cockfighting or dogfighting. So, we spend time talking about the mechanics of a fight, the tools of the trade, some of the training tools they use, some of the supplements or materials that an animal fighter might have to read or study. We really help officers build that store of knowledge so that when they do go in the field, they might suddenly understand, “Oh, what I’m seeing is meaningful.” It’s particularly meaningful now that I have this knowledge, and I know that it may pertain to someone who’s raising or training fighting dogs or fighting roosters. It provides a much better platform for these police officers to identify that a crime may be taking place, assess if they have probable cause, and then have some foundation of training and knowledge to move forward, potentially seeking a search warrant. It helps build that knowledge base for investigators moving forward, giving them something to fall back on, to identify the crime and proceed with some level of expertise.
So, that’s kind of the animal cruelty and fighting investigations in a nutshell. Moving on, the police dog encounters—now, that can be a sensitive subject. We don’t want to tell—I mean, I’m a police officer through and through. I will never not be a police officer. Born and bred, it’s in my blood. But we certainly want to make sure that when police officers engage with animals in the community, they have the tools available to them to have the best encounter possible.
We know — myself included — family pets are like children to many folks. If a police officer happens to have a really negative encounter with a dog, where perhaps lethal force is used against that animal, some of the most negative press releases we see are interactions between law enforcement and the community when a police officer has to shoot a family pet. So, in police dog encounters, we discuss how to identify and read the signs from a dog to understand if there’s danger or anxiety. We talk about how to best approach the dog to minimize the potential for aggression, and if there is known aggression, what tools can we bring to bear. Is there certain equipment we can use? Can we bring in an animal control officer or someone trained in handling aggressive animals to minimize the potential for those negative encounters?
You know, I use an example: a second circuit case out of Hartford, Connecticut, where a police officer shot a family pet. The police department was sued, and it was settled out of court for over $600,000. From a liability standpoint, we also want to share this knowledge with officers to give them the tools to hopefully avoid a negative outcome and have the best outcome possible.
Jim Dudley: Yeah, and going back a little bit to animal cruelty and fighting investigations, I think it would be pretty apparent if you sent officers to a call—say a neighbor calls or somebody in the neighborhood — and you go to a warehouse or a garage, and there’s a fight and money being placed as bets and all of that. But what about in those incidental cases where an officer sees the indicia, if you will — scarred-up dogs, weightlifting materials nearby, makeshift workout facilities — like our terrorism liaison officers, where they go back and write suspicious activity reports. Do you go that route, taking it for prosecution, getting search warrants, and things like that? Is that similar to what happens in these kinds of cases where an officer gets on scene for a different call and notices something that seems suspicious?
Trevor Whipple: Absolutely. Those are some excellent points because, in many jurisdictions, the mere possession of fighting paraphernalia is a crime. In some jurisdictions, it’s a felony to possess fighting materials. That could be a break stick, a treadmill, or a spring pole. We teach officers by showing them examples, pictures, so they’ll know what to look for. If you’ve never encountered it before, these things might seem rather benign or could be explained away. But with some training, a newer officer who attends our one-day training might not be an expert, but they’ll have enough knowledge to think, “That’s strange; I think that means something.”
We try to build connections and relationships. HSUS has subject matter experts working on undercover dogfighting cases today with a high level of experience. They’re available for consultation. If a newer officer takes some pictures during a drug warrant and sees something odd, they can always leave one warrant and reapply for a new one with probable cause for a different crime. We hope to build out those relationships and knowledge bases, so officers feel supported. Dogfighting isn’t something most officers encounter every day, and it might be years after training before they bump into it. We want to have those resources in place when that happens.
Jim Dudley: One of the other classes that looks really relevant is on animal abuse and violent crime. It’s described as an in-depth discussion of the relationship between animal abuse and other violent crime, including gangs and drugs, domestic violence and child abuse. It addresses investigatory techniques and tips to be prepared for other criminal activity likely to be present. Tell us about that.
Trevor Whipple: Yeah, so, there’s a lot of time spent on this, and it’s really good knowledge. You know, I think to distill it, we often call it “the link”—the link between animal cruelty, animal crimes, and crimes against humans. What we’ve found, time and time again in studies, is that people who perpetrate crimes against animals, whether it’s cruelty or neglect, there’s a high correlation that those will be the same people who will engage in violence against human beings.
We offer some citations to studies in our classes. I’ve recently done a training with the Department of Homeland Security on threat assessment, and we include this in their assessment when they’re looking at potential targets. If someone has a prior history of animal cruelty, that should be something that raises the antenna, where we say, “Aha, we should look a little deeper.”
Historically, we go back to Jeffrey Dahmer and the Boston Strangler. During their investigations, it was found that when they were children, they were perpetrating crimes against animals—pretty violent crimes against animals. I also draw in two very recent examples—two years old now—but in the Uvalde school shooting, during the investigation, they identified that the Uvalde school shooter had a history of crimes against animals. He was torturing animals. Similarly, the Buffalo shooter—the white supremacist who shot and killed a number of people in Buffalo, New York—also had a history of animal cruelty.
So, we really highlight and flesh this out because, as officers working in the field, we have phenomenal opportunities to interrupt criminal behavior—sometimes accidentally. We may get called to a noise complaint and suddenly stumble upon something. What we try to do is educate and bring attention to this co-occurring or linked behavior.
If an officer is responding to a crime against an animal, we want them to be open-minded and think about, “Okay, if this individual is harming an animal, what about everyone else in the household? Is there interpersonal violence? Are there crimes against children, a domestic partner, or the elderly?” studies have shown there is often a linkage in these cases.
We also train officers to look the other direction because we want to protect animals as much as we want to protect people. So, if you’re responding to a child abuse or neglect case, take the opportunity to look around in plain view. If there’s a dog in the backyard, how is the dog being treated? Maybe that dog is also a victim of some sort of criminal behavior.
We spend a lot of time distilling that and providing granular examples so that investigators can really understand the importance of not missing this link.
There are a couple of recent studies, both by the FBI and the Secret Service, when they studied recent mass casualty events. They kept this in mind. In fact, in 2016, the FBI added animal cruelty to their Part 1 crime list, which rates it at the same level as homicide, sexual assault, and burglary. The FBI saw the importance of not missing these opportunities to understand the linkages and to draw future knowledge and guidance in criminal investigations from understanding these connections.
Jim Dudley: Yeah, that’s interesting stuff. I remember the old profile said that really disturbed people had a pattern of animal abuse, arson, and bed-wetting. I think we’ve moved beyond that a little bit, but what you’re talking about is really a lack of empathy. If someone can torture an animal, then human beings are even lower on the pecking order, right? And I remember when I was the captain of our Juvenile and Family Services unit, the first categories of mandatory reporters beyond police, physicians, nurses, and teachers included SPCA officers and Animal Care and Control officers. They were included because of the collateral observations they may make in response to a call about an animal in distress. That relationship between animal abuse, domestic violence, and potential child abuse is crucial.
I think the direct link is indeed the lack of empathy. Individuals who show no remorse—this is something we can really identify with and make connections with. Over the last few years, our police officers have been told to take note of children in the home because there’s the effect of children witnessing violence. Even if the children themselves aren’t being abused, just witnessing the animal being abused weighs heavily on them, now and for their future.
Trevor Whipple: Well, and it’s also teaching them that violence is okay. When you’re under stress, it’s okay to act out against an animal. That’s what they learn by seeing what’s modeled in front of them.
In domestic violence cases, animals can be tools for abusers to keep a victim trapped in that violent relationship. Victims will endure horrific abuse and remain in that danger zone because they don’t want to leave their dog or cat behind, or because they’ve been threatened: “If you leave or report to the police, this is what I’ll do to your animal.”
I actually use a video of someone who subtly abused a cat when his domestic partner made an outcry, saying, “I’m sick of this. I’m going to the authorities.” When she returned home — she hadn’t reported yet — he had done pretty horrific stuff to her cat. He didn’t kill it, but the warning was clear: “If you follow through, I’m going to take the next step. Fluffy is in danger.”
There are all sorts of things that take place around animals that hold great importance in households and relationships, particularly for children. We’ve heard for years about the cautionary tales of violent video games and what they teach children about empathy and harm to others. This is real life. These are real animals. We should have the same concerns about what this does to a child’s psyche and development.
Jim Dudley: So, what about capacity issues? With the recruitment issues in law enforcement, I imagine it’s taking a toll on personnel at shelters and within the Humane Society as well.
Trevor Whipple: Yeah, I don’t think it’s any different from law enforcement. The recruitment and retention challenges are just as insurmountable in the animal care profession. These folks have a passion for the work — they wouldn’t be there otherwise. It’s hard work, and like law enforcement, they’re doing double duty. If they’re short-staffed, they can’t just not feed or clean the animals — someone has to do it.
We have shelters that are beyond capacity. I haven’t engaged with any animal care professionals who’ve told me they have extra room at their shelter. They have animals doubled up because they don’t want to unnecessarily euthanize them. This increases their workload and mental and physical strain. It’s a tough time right now, and I give credit to those sticking with the work. We hope that, just like in law enforcement, we can get more creative with recruitment strategies and be more supportive of the employees we do have so we can retain them.
When we teach classes, I love the blended ones where we have certified law enforcement officers and civilian animal care professionals. We need to show each other some love because we need each other. The strain we’re all under can be alleviated if we work together in investigations and personally support each other.
Jim Dudley: Yeah, and all good reasons for law enforcement officers to get that training so they can do the work up front, even if there’s a delay in response from animal control.
Trevor Whipple: You’re right. It’s about recognizing the signs early. If we can intervene early on, these cases are much less egregious and much easier to deal with.
Jim Dudley: So, okay, we get to a call, or we notice something, and at some point, we’re going to seize an animal. What happens next?
Trevor Whipple: That’s the big question, Jim — what do we do? It depends on what kind of animal it is and how many there are. Sometimes, it’s not so bad — maybe just one emaciated dog. We seize it, take it to the local animal shelter, they have veterinary services, and they care for it. But the problem arises when you have that one emaciated dog, and then you go to the property and find 40 more in the building out back. Then it’s, “Oh, now what?”
It comes down to knowing your resources. What’s available? It also depends on the species. I come from an area with a lot of large animals — we have a lot of equine and dairy cows. Right now, there’s a case involving a farm with over 100 horses. What would we do if we needed to seize 100 horses? How are we going to move them? Where are we going to put them?
It’s really about knowing your local resources and your points of contact. If it involves farming, the Department of Agriculture in many states will have ideas for resources or farms that can take in extra animals. At HSUS, we have emergency response teams that can deploy for large-scale cases if it meets the criteria. For example, there was a case in New Hampshire involving 82 Great Danes. A full team was deployed, and they set up a kennel operation for 82 Great Danes for two years, as it took two years to adjudicate the case. No one agency can handle something like that alone. It’s a matter of knowing which friend to call.
And then, there are still cases where, in my area, we call it “Yankee Ingenuity.” You pull together all your friends and ask, “Who can take two horses? Who can take a pig? Who can take a cow?” We pull it together and do the best we can with what we have.
Jim Dudley: We’ve been talking about training and first response. What kind of training is given that helps prepare officers for these kinds of encounters? Is there a sort of animal de-escalation being taught?
Trevor Whipple: When we talk about police encounters, we’re focusing on how to engage with dogs so that we don’t trigger aggressive behavior or how to identify aggression that’s building. We work on those situations. Frankly, we talk about de-escalation — human and animal — simultaneously because the very same skills work equally well. We talk about interjecting time and distance into an encounter.
We know through our use-of-force studies in law enforcement that when we’re dealing with humans, if we appropriately and safely interject time and distance, we can slow things down and lower the temperature. The same applies when we’re confronting a dog that may not want us in its presence. If we can safely interject time and distance and bring the temperature down, it’s helpful with animals too.
It’s also about recognizing who has the expertise with these animals. We had a case in my jurisdiction involving a significant number of reptiles — various lizards and snakes. I don’t know much about them and, frankly, don’t want to know much about them, but I knew someone who rehabilitated them. I called her, and she knew exactly how to interface with these animals so that she would be safe and, equally as important, so the animals would be safe.
We spend time in some of our programs discussing these specific dynamics.
Jim Dudley: We talked about personnel shortages. What’s the other big challenge in animal response?
Trevor Whipple: The first and foremost challenge is getting folks to recognize the importance of it. I understand that there are people in law enforcement agencies and communities who don’t have a particular soft spot for animals. They don’t have connections to animals, and animals aren’t particularly meaningful to them. What I do hope is that law enforcement officials — maybe they don’t have the compassion for animals or let their dog sleep on the bed — but we hope they recognize the importance of appropriate treatment of animals, the standards of care, and the basic necessities that should be met as an animal owner.
Realizing the significance when those aren’t being met is crucial. It’s not just harm to the animal — it’s the greater sphere of what else might be going on in that household or family. That’s a challenge — getting everyone to open their eyes and see that this is meaningful. When the FBI Behavioral Analysis Unit in Quantico says it’s important and started collecting data on it in 2016, that’s a sign.
The other significant challenges we’ve already discussed are access to resources. What do we do in these big cases? How do we fund it? How do we find staff or facilities? These are big challenges. It screams the importance of identifying these situations before they spiral out of control. If someone is an animal hoarder, it’s far better to deal with them when they have 20 cats rather than 60. We need our frontline officers trained to recognize these signs and intercede sooner rather than later.
Jim Dudley: That’s good stuff. For the record, I love my dog — she’s a six-year-old rescue, half Rottweiler, half German Shepherd, named Suka. She’s part of the family, but she doesn’t get to sleep in the bed.
Trevor Whipple: That’s okay. As long as you take appropriate care of her, sleeping on the bed is not a requirement.
Jim Dudley: I’m going to hold you to that! In these situations, crime scenes are different. What should officers be mindful of in preserving or identifying evidence, whether indoors or outdoors?
Trevor Whipple: Well, we know if we don’t grab the evidence now, it’s probably not going to be around later. When your agency is planning an operation to do a seizure or execute a search warrant, hopefully, you’ve done some good reconnaissance. Sometimes, we get surprised — we know that in any investigation. But when it comes to animals, do as much homework as possible to identify what you think you’ll encounter and come in with appropriate resources.
One big challenge is that this is moving evidence. We’re trained from day one to identify evidence, not touch it, photograph it in place, appropriately label it, collect it, package it, and maintain a good chain of custody. Well, if you’ve got 40 cats running around a house, that’s going to be tough.
Do the best you can. If you have animal care professionals with you, make sure they’re instructed on police procedures for evidence identification, labeling, and seizing. There have been cases where well-meaning folks come in, see an animal in distress, and immediately take it outside to a veterinarian. They miss the opportunity to delay for 10 seconds, photograph it in place, and ensure proper documentation.
As I mentioned earlier, these cases are built on evidence. If a case moves forward, the defense will target the evidence and attempt to have it suppressed. Everything we can do to document and preserve the evidence properly is critical. If we have animal care professionals with us, we must make sure they understand that before they help the animal and remove it from a bad situation, they need to identify, label, and photograph it properly. After that, they can take the animal outside for care.
Having relationships and training together can be beneficial in these circumstances. Also, once we seize this evidence — it’s living, breathing, and moving. If we seize an emaciated Rottweiler today, this case may not go to court for 12 months. By that time, the defense may parade the Rottweiler, now looking healthy, in front of the jury and claim there was nothing wrong with the dog. We need to document these things minutely to address challenges down the road.
Jim Dudley: Yeah, for sure. I want to ask you about some high-profile incidents you can recall, here in San Francisco and across the country. I’ve received photos and videos of officers dealing with alligators by the tail, snapping turtles on a stick, raccoons, or what have you. Even in an urban setting like San Francisco, just last July, a 5-year-old was bitten by a coyote in the city. We’ve had deer running amok through houses, and just north of us, a woman was killed and partially eaten by a bear in her home. We talk about infringing on their habitats. Can you give us a couple of situations you’ve encountered that were really challenging for you?
Trevor Whipple: As far as wild animals go, there’s nothing that really stands out, but we do have cases where animals attack other animals. Coyotes take down lambs, foxes or weasels take out entire flocks of chickens. These incidents don’t involve crimes against people, but they impact their animals. We also have cases where wild animals kill cats or dogs.
It really comes down to knowing your habitat and trying to understand the behavior of the animals. I think the significant cause of these incidents is that humans are encroaching on wild animal territory, giving them less space to live in. At the same time, we’re providing them with easy access to food sources.
In law enforcement, we should work with fish and wildlife, or conservation officers, to provide community information bulletins. These can include tips like not leaving trash outside and securing it in an animal-proof bin. In my area, where we have black bears, we remind people to clean their grills after cooking. If you don’t, Mama Bear might come out and finish the job for you.
Anything we can do to prevent drawing animals to us and disrupting their natural behavior is helpful. The more they learn that they can come to humans for easy food, the more they will.
Jim Dudley: Well, retired Chief Trevor Whipple, this must be a labor of love for you, going back to teach about animal investigations. Good for you.
Trevor Whipple: It is, and I enjoy it. What I really enjoy is working with folks who are eager and passionate about doing this work. Seeing those collaborations and outcomes, holding people accountable, and rescuing animals from horrible situations — it makes it all worthwhile.
Jim Dudley: Well, thanks for taking the time with us today. We’ll put the links below, including your full bio, so our listeners can learn more about you and the HSUS website, and how they can access some of this really valuable training. Thanks again.
Trevor Whipple: Jim, thank you. I appreciate it.
Jim Dudley: To our listeners, let me know what you think. Definitely check the links below. As Chief Whipple said, it might not be something you handle tomorrow or next month, but down the line, it could be valuable. Take care, drop me a line at policingmatters@police1.com, and stay safe. I hope to talk to you again real soon.
